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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Big Bucks can be grown in Southeast Ms. on a poor mans budget, Hunters just need patience. Get the ground as fertile as possible, shoot oldest does on property, increase age to 5 1/2 years of bucks and most importantly, every neighbor needs the same idea!! Genetics play a huge role in this, which comes with intense management of cull bucks and oldest does. Always try to keep the age class of your does under the age of 4 years. Supplemental summer feeding can get expensive, so I suggest fixing the nutritional deficiencies with liming the soil and using foliar fertilizer to increase fertility and amount of tonnage per acre. It took 6 years before I started seeing good results and I have at least three or four 5 1/2 year olds on the property every year, These pics are free range bucks on 1000 acres surrounded by dog hunting, keep running them hounds!!! Happy Hunting!!!
 

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We can all agree that age and nutritious food will help your herd. With limited pressure, you will see more deer during the day.

But, what exactly do you believe you are accomplishing by culling bucks and older does in a free range 1000 acres?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
8 years ago this property had poor genetics, this was a doghunting club previously, every buck was killed and very few does were managed, culling bucks with inferior genes and shooting the oldest does helps keeps good genetics flowing Throughout the property and surrounding properties, I must be doing something right I kill a couple of big bucks like this every year since I’ve intensely managed it for 8 years. This property has went from nothing to something and will continue as long as it’s managed properly. You do know that does carry over 60% of the antler genetics. If you have inferior genes you better fix the doe problem and kill cull inferior genes so they don’t pass on. Let good genes breed!!
 

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Am I missing something? Do does with good genetics at 2 years old get bad genetics when they reach 6 years old? How do you know if a doe is 3 or 6? Low pressure, letting bucks get old and food is definitely working for you
 

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Am I missing something? Do does with good genetics at 2 years old get bad genetics when they reach 6 years old? How do you know if a doe is 3 or 6? Low pressure, letting bucks get old and food is definitely working for you
Put tags in their ears. 😉

I had see a Really old doe maybe not providing good decent milk for a fawn because her teeth were worn to the point of not getting sufficient nourishment herself, and that fawn being behind a little...but the genetics are exactly the same.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
There are only a few people that I truly believe when it comes to whitetails and Dr Deer is by far the go to man for me. Watch his video on shooting more does! To me, he is one of the few that truely understands how to manage whitetails. Read his article on “Harvesting more does” he explains the age structures of bucks and does, this is what I’ve done on my property and I see the results every year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The property has exactly the same genetics now as it did 8yrs ago, 30 years ago, and 30 years from now.
No it doesn’t, it has more variation in the gene pool, because I try to keep the does young. This doesn’t allow the genes to get stagnant in an area. This area had bucks on it with all kinds of genetic abnormalities. No brow tines, forked 6 points, 5 points, 3 on one side cow horn on the other. These genes were everywhere. Seemed as if every doe I got pics of was old old and when I killed them there jawbones showed they were greater than 5 years. It’s been proven that younger does give birth to more bucks fawns more often. So I’m trying to build a older buck herd with young does. It seems like it has worked. I still have those inferior genes on the property but not as much as It did when I started. I have a 2 year old with 10 point genes on the property now and many many symmetrical 8 points as 2 year olds,this was not even the case 8 years ago. When I started managing the does we took 15 oldest does the first year and have taken 12 every year since. I was culling inferior bucks also. I probably should take more but I don’t. This past year was the first time I have had many bucks broke off at the end of the season. I also found many places where bucks had fought. This is something that is not ever seen around this area much because of the dense population of does. This means the ratio is beginning to get to where it needs to be. I’m just trying yo get hunters to believe the biologists about doe harvest, I’ve put the research to the test in one of the hardest places to grow big bucks which is in the Deep South dog hunting capital of the world.
 

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By the age of 2 1/2 or 31/2, if a buck doesn’t have 8 points by 2 years old then I want those genes off the property, this is what I’ve been doing and it’s working.
Interesting, so a 2.5 year with an odd rack would most likely not grow out of those characteristics as they get older? I will try and upload a picture of one I have been watching. I was thinking he was a good candidate for removal this year.
Plant Photograph Window Deer Nature
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Interesting, so a 2.5 year with an odd rack would most likely not grow out of those characteristics as they get older? I will try and upload a picture of one I have been watching. I was thinking he was a good candidate for removal this year. View attachment 69886
I have had numerous bucks on my property like this, I have allowed them to get older and their racks never became symmetrical. So I decided to take all unsymmetrical antlers out by at least 3 years. This deer will never have a brow tine on his right side and if he does it will be very small, he will always have a weak side.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I have had numerous bucks on my property like this, I have allowed them to get older and their racks never became symmetrical. So I decided to take all unsymmetrical antlers out by at least 3 years. This deer will never have a brow tine on his right side and if he does it will be very small, he will always have a weak side. You could let him go and he could grow into a giant 7 or maybe a unsymmetrical 8 with weak points. I just wanted symmetrical genetics on my property, and the only way I can, is select the antler genes that I want to breed. In this pic I have a great example of a 2 year old with good genes, the other deer was the same the year before he just got heavier and wider he is a 31/2 year old, he will be taken out this year!
 

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not so much the brow tine, but if you look at his right side he only has two points, so a 2x4 this was my concern, many bucks lack the browtines here. What part of the state are you in? Im in wathall county.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
not so much the brow tine, but if you look at his right side he only has two points, so a 2x4 this was my concern, many bucks lack the browtines here. What part of the state are you in? Im in wathall county.
Yeah he needs to go, his horns will never be symmetrical, I usually let my 2 sons kill the culls every year. What kind of doe program are you implementing? I’m in the edge of Greene and Perry, I have that same genetic abnormalities on my property, but since I’ve been killing the oldest does and culling those genes seem to be getting less and less. This is why you should try to keep the does young on your property, this means your always turning over those old genes with new genes from your good buck stock you have been growing . This leads to greater genetic variation and larger antler size! Another thing that many people don’t understand about killing does is, if you want a young buck to stay in your property you really need to try to kill his mother and sister if possible. This is done because if you don’t he will leave the property by the time he is 1 1/2 or 2 years old. This is naturally done because of not wanting to interbreed. I Think a lot of places get over populated with bad genes are due to interbreeding done by the abundance of young bucks on the property and no doe management! I could talk about this stuff all day! Forgive me for rambling!
 

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Yeah he needs to go, his horns will never be symmetrical, I usually let my 2 sons kill the culls every year. What kind of doe program are you implementing? I’m in the edge of Greene and Perry, I have that same genetic abnormalities on my property, but since I’ve been killing the oldest does and culling those genes seem to be getting less and less. This is why you should try to keep the does young on your property, this means your always turning over those old genes with new genes from your good buck stock you have been growing . This leads to greater genetic variation and larger antler size! Another thing that many people don’t understand about killing does is, if you want a young buck to stay in your property you really need to try to kill his mother and sister if possible. This is done because if you don’t he will leave the property by the time he is 1 1/2 or 2 years old. This is naturally done because of not wanting to interbreed. I Think a lot of places get over populated with bad genes are due to interbreeding done by the abundance of young bucks on the property and no doe management! I could talk about this stuff all day! Forgive me for rambling!
I get what you're saying now. Killing poorer quality bucks does no good if his theoretical sister is still out there spreading those genetics. So as you get rid of the obvious bad genetics in the bucks, you need to take out the potential bad genetics in the old does (not obvious to the eyes). Theoretically, as the average age of the does gets younger, they should be carrying better genes since you have been managing the bucks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I get what you're saying now. Killing poorer quality bucks does no good if his theoretical sister is still out there spreading those genetics. So as you get rid of the obvious bad genetics in the bucks, you need to take out the potential bad genetics in the old does (not obvious to the eyes). Theoretically, as the average age of the does gets younger, they should be carrying better genes since you have been managing the bucks.
Exactly!!!!
 

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Well, he is on my hit list along with a half rack that has been showing up. I am hoping to get a crack at him with the recurve. If he makes it to gun season he will be fair game for one of the kids or my dad.
 

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So I’m trying to build a older buck herd with young does. It seems like it has worked. I still have those inferior genes on the property but not as much as It did when I started.
Culling in a free range will affect your phenotype, but not the genotype. So, when you cull for a couple years, what you see can be different. You shoot that 3 year old imbalanced buck, he isn't there to be seen the following years. However, taking him out of the gene pool hasn't made any significant change to the genetic pool of the herd.

You seem quite passionate about it and that's great. Culling deer isn't going to harm anything and you like it, so have at it. I saw above where you referenced Dr. Kroll being one of the few people you truly believe. Like you, I also believe only a handful of those claiming to be deer experts. Dr. Deerpen isn't one for me. If I wanted to hear about the captive cervid industry, I would listen to him because that is where his research has been directed for the past 10+ years. If I want to hear about what happens with wild deer populations, I listen to folks like Steve Ditchkoff, Harry Jacobson, Lindsay Thomas, Steve Demarais, Bronson Strickland or Grant Woods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If a buck on my property is not symmetrical by 3 years of age he is going to taken out, I prefer that a symmetrical genes breed and pass on genetics, if you let know bad genes continue, then your going to contradict what your trying to accomplish with your doe heard with fixing and maintaining the up to 70 % of the antler genes you are trying to protect and carry on, I would prefer to have a 8 point 3 year old rather than a 3 year old 6 pt without brow tines. Which one do you want putting genes into the gene pool? I’m not only trying to fix the genetics on my property, I’m trying to help fix the one off my property also, if a cull 3 year old walks through my property he will be taken out, so he will never breed, I have plenty of good genes on my property now due to the program that i have been implementing, I’ve also talked to neighbors and they have seen an increase in the antler size and better genetics. What part of Mississippi do you hunt? I’m on the line of Greene and Perry, where deer have not been managed properly of for the past 40 years or more, dog hunting had ruined the ratio and aloud bad genetics to run wild. Would you allow this deer to breed? I also have more bucks with great genes than I’ve ever had on the property and less cull genes and my food has not change since the beginning, so what I’m doing is working!
 

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